So you're an accomplished engineer who has been put out to pasture because you got too old to do tech. What do you do for the next 40 years of your life? Discuss...
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#ElectronicsCreators #Ageism #Tech
- Music by Fran Blanche -
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We have a Plumber in London UK who is 100+ year's old.
The young plumbers struggle to keep up with him,
Not only in knowledge and experience but also work ethics like turning up on time letalone turn in 5 day's in a row. 😆
Our Over Educated Entitled Millennials are no turning into their twenties and they are in debt up to the eyeballs from all the University fees and loan's they don't yet have to pay back until they make over £27,295 per annum. With the cost of living hear that's not much in the way of income if your rasing a young family. It's called 'poverty trapped' 😔
And thats what the big companies like and want, its much easier to bully them who have little money. Sad but true.
Left school in the 1980's with no idea. Now 58 and had over 30 job's, been Fired 3 times 😆 "refused to be bullied" and told 3 employers to stuff it where the sun doesn't shine, But in all that time only ever kicked 1 manager in the bollocks "but I did get all my money then". priceless the look of horror on his 'but im bigger than you' face..! That was the first time he had too look upwards at my face looking down on him. He called me an animal 😆 ten minutes earlier he thought he was pushing me out the door with nothing..! 😆 Absolutely priceless Literally and financially.
The life of a Plumber in short…
"They talk weird." Yeah, I remember a song titled "If I Were A Carpenter" – i noticed "were" being replaced with "was" in the 1990s. No one (even in the USA) says among anymore, suddenly everyone says amongst. Nevermind the changes in words themselves and their meanings, I never dreamed I'd see the day when broken syntax would became common. Such as sentence fragments.
I just got a recruiter messaging me wanting an expert COBOL programmer. I forgot I had COBOL on my resume – I had one quarter of it in college and never looked back. Probably half the trick to writing a resume is knowing what to take off, as well as what to put on. One trick I was told was remove the dates of attendance at college, and drop your first job or two, so you look younger and it's harder to tell how old you are.
I read EETimes and the other trade magazines last millennium, ageism and the expectation of engineers going into management was discussed (as A Thing you have to be aware of and work with, not fight back against) back then so I have no excuses. I recall some article in advancing your (technical) career, maybe in EDN. One point was "practice your swing." Yes, they literally meant play golf, because the golf course was the place where business (which has no age limit for participation) gets done.
Some embedded programming blogger(s) have been writing about the "full stack developers" adding embedded to their resumes. I found something from Michael Barr, and I ALMOST found something from Jack Ganssle but no, he was talking about testing code for a "nearly full stack." It seems everyone's a generalist AND a specialist thesedays. I wonder if the full stackers know how to set a resistor value (resistance AND power rating) to go in series with an LED.
Here's my advice to anyone in a technical field maybe 25 or 30 years old or older: Skip out on learning that extra language, framework or whatever, and concentrate on improving your social and business skills, especially The Art Of Kissing Ass.
On the point of relocating people. IBM has been infamously known as I've Been Moved for a long time because they do that a lot. While there is probably truth to allegations of agism. Especially with software engineering I think there was a time i.e. 80-90's a lot of mediocre (at best) devs got into the field with much lower barriers. I.e. back when people who couldn't write much beyond hello world were working as dev's. So some of this could be consequence of everyone regardless of age being held to higher standards.
The smart engineer will know that the "company" will do whatever it takes to avoid paying those retirement and seniority benefits that were the lure of initial employment. The smart engineer will bank all the knowledge and experience (and income) gained during wage earning years to use as a shield against the corporate reality that you, as an individual, don't count for squat. My personal experience, at the age of 65 I converted those years of experience and knowledge into a product and two patents that have for the past 10 years paved a golden pathway to very enjoyable work that not only provides travel and adventure but also "paid it forward" to a colleague who helped make it possible and uses that pathway to his own success as a self employed engineer. The pipeline is full of potential, new products, new adventures, and new challenges – why on Earth would I even consider retirement? The secret to success as a self employed engineer? Do not fear failure! If I never failed trying to find success I probably wouldn't know it when I found it. There are more niches for an engineer or skilled technician to fill than most ever see or recognize.
hi Fran,
Your post today is (for me) one of the most interesting posts of your entire career on YouTube. Yes, I'm one of the 'ones' that was forced from the 'ship' (as it were) , and for me that happened in 2002.
When I was forced off I was a Senior Staff Software Engineer with IBM. I had 'just under' thirty years with the company , and was 47 years old at the time; I am 67 today this year.
My specialty was AI and systems automation for IBM internal tools at the Rochester MN lab ( I have worked all over the United States with IBM , including KCMO, Atlanta, Chicago, Tampa Fl, and Rochester ) . I have the IBM internal distinction of being the 'first' IBMer (internally) to move my automation client / server models to GNU/Linux using off-the-shelf parts. I was instrumental (among many others) in getting IBM management interested in using GNU/Linux ; but, this 'dino-baby' cost toooo much in salary and benefits. IBM has been engaged in age discrimination for many decades, very actively since the John Akers days. I survived several rounds of forced severance since the days of John Akers, who left refusing to be the ONE at IBM who would break the model of 'Respect for the Individual' and the model of cradle-to-grave continuous employment ; all 'real' IBMers (including me) expected to be with the company for at least thirty years… I made it to 26.
Today IBM is irrelevant. They are right! They are behind their contemporary corporations, and they are lagging behind in innovation and that sense of fresh relevance that IBM always stood for in the past, when they valued their people, and when they valued their people above their other assets. IBM's famous leader Thomas J. Watson Sr. stated a challenge that anyone might take away his assets totally , just leave him his people , and he would build it all back again !
IBM since John Akers lost their three basic beliefs, most importantly the belief in respect for the individual ( respect for their people ).
To see the article you posted here is not surprising , nor is it new. This has been on-going for many many decades; and IBM is paying for it . When IBM lost respect for their people, and their customers, their people and their customers lost respect for IBM. IBM is a has-been company trailing behind the tech giants today (Starlink, SpaceX, Google, Amazon, etc etc). IBM will never recover.
PS: I still do engineering, and software development. Today I am using single board nano computers (Raspberry PI, Pine Board, various Python boards) and I'm still very much into AI and systems automation… just not for big BLUE. Part time I drive a school bus route, and the rest of my time I play the cello, and ride motorcycles. As one of the last 'real' IBMers, I keep my eyes open, and 'we' keep watching.
marcus
Huh! I left school and went to college to study for computer and information sciences. I admit that the early 90’s was a nightmare for trying to get jobs in the entry level jobs. Government encouraged us to train for sectors that there’s no job security and an NC or HNC in IT I had to take anything jobwise because employers wanted degrees and job experience. I ended up in food/hospitality then retraining and disabled rehabilitation services forced into the never ending training for work schemes. Last job was casual Library and information Assistant. I eventually had to retire through medical reasons. Now at 49, the UK government just passed a new law, sadly despite your qualfications, experience etc.. you have 3 weeks to get a job in your field or you’ll have to take anything that we will give you, even if it’s a cleaner. It’s worse when the Government decides that even medically retired are scrutinised and I have just found out that I both got autistic and AHDD, with PTSD-C. Now having an energy limitation disability on top of that and Post covid disability it’s quite a bit of pain in the arse. Not my fault for having a multitude of health problems and employers do not want the disabled in the workforce.
An older person might appear slower, but experience more than makes up for that. Experience means you're not making all the mistakes a junior person would, and you know how to build things in a way that's maintainable, saving considerable time in the long run. Experienced workers are an investment. But some companies care only about $$$ in the short term. Getting rid of older experienced workers in favor of younger new workers can be an immediate cost savings. It may even be a few years down the road before the damage of such a move is apparent.
I'm still hoping that despite being a millennial I can still make a career shift into tech. It's going to be tough and I might not make it, but I have to try. I don't really have an alternative.
I got invited to retire from A Big Electronics Company after 30 years of service during a big round of layoffs a couple of years ago at age 65. TBH it probably was the best thing to happen to ever happen to me. But the funniest part of the separation was that I had to sign a document stating that I understood it wasn't due to age, and to prove that they gave me a spreadsheet with all the employees in similar jobs and their ages, along with their status of being retained or severed. People in their 30s and 40s… all retained. People in their 50s… mostly retained but a few severed. People in their 60s and 70s… all severed! So the funny thing was, the document that they said proved it wasn't due to age discrimination – proved that it was!
how are there 20yo executives? they dont know anything! I hate this. You just finish paying off your school loans and now ur too old. Meanwhile what do I do? I'm 30 with decades of experience but no degree. Ive been told im over qualified or have no proof that I worked for sombody. So im stuck finding my own way. I refuse to work retail. So I study and record videos. Maybe Ill figure out something. Some kind of business for myself. Its really my only option.
Its like being robbed of a future I was promised. Nobody gives chances or wants to teach or apprentice. NOTHING! Noone is understanding, kind or caring in the workplace. I refuse. I rather live in the mountains.
i'd suggest thet IBM is more interested in replacing long term employees with new hires because they are cheaper. Ageism is rife in hiring because of the perception that new graduates have a better handle on current technology; not always so, textbooks and courses always lag the cutting edge. Am engineer already in the field will of necessity keep up with new developments
I was laid off at 40 (a long toime ago now) and couldn't even get an interview in engineering. I was lucky in that i got called by another branch of the same company in another country and am still consulting there.
Some 45 years ago – the young adults older than me by a couple years absorbed all of the jobs that were available. This was local – say 60 mile circumference. I was someone with multiple talents. Mechanics – Autobody – carpentry – construction – driver – to 18 whls. So for about 5 years or more – I was self employed. And I had to keep all the plates spinning – otherwise there was a big crash when i stopped. Slowly – the job market opened and I moved to that. At 25, I was a manager of people. My staff varied from 22 to 60. I very much worked to keep everyone in my crew happy. For 27 yrs, I had very low turn over. Maybe 1 every 7 yrs. To me – those older were assets. I valued them! And over time – I became them. I had to stop working at 51. I expected to get repaired and rejoin my crew within a year or two. I never did. Now at 61, And for a number of years – I just want to pass on tools to those younger than me. Most have no idea that almost anything can be repaired. But our society – is built on tossing out and buying the latest. Look at Cellphones as an example. Every 6 months – something is new and the lemmings stand in line, with a CC. Cheers Fran!
From what I've seen/heard, USA employment law & practices are among the worse in the world. The corporate idiots who encourage a culture of ageism will suffer from their own efforts in due time. Oh they probably think they will be wealthy enough to retire age 50 or it won't happen to them but they have no way to be sure of that. I'm nearly 52, an unemployed physics graduate and I get people suggesting I "pursue a career in a different field of work" such as cleaning or warehouse operative.
I think they want the young staff because they are young enough not to know that the corporation who wants them to "feel part of the family", will crap on them just as much as any other. In employment, you're only wanted as long as you say "yes please" to a pay cut or extra hours. The young uns don't feel comfortable managing people old enough to be their mom or dad and being comfortable is what young folks like the most.
Seriously though, I think there is a problem with younger managers who want to employ people they could see as being their friend, their genertion, in their gratuation year.